UNBeknownst podcast episode 26
Ambassador Deborah Lyons (BA’71, DLitt’15) is a diplomat with 25 years of experience in international relations, political affairs, security management and development. In 2023, she was named Canada’s Special Envoy on Preserving Holocaust Remembrance and Combatting Antisemitism, through which she plays a leading role in Canada’s efforts to combat antisemitism and hatred abroad. From 2020-2022 she served as the United Nations (UN) Secretary-General’s Special Representative for Afghanistan and Head of the UN Assistance Mission in Afghanistan. During this time, she spearheaded the UN’s support for peace efforts in Afghanistan, championed increased regional co-operation, led preparations for the successful 2020 Afghanistan donor conference, and oversaw the UN’s continued operations after the Taliban takeover in August 2021. She also advocated for measures to stabilize the region’s macroeconomic environment, which had been shaken by sanctions, facilitated sustained international engagement, and served as a strong and visible advocate for the rights of all Afghans.
Ms. Lyons previously served as Ambassador of Canada to Israel (2016 to 2020), Ambassador of Canada to Afghanistan (2013 to 2016), and Deputy Ambassador of Canada to the United States (2010 to 2013). She also held several senior positions at Global Affairs Canada, Natural Resources Canada, the Privy Council Office, and the Atlantic Canada Opportunities Agency. Prior to joining the Government of Canada, she owned and managed an environmental consulting firm.
Ms. Lyons is from Miramichi, New Brunswick and graduated from UNB in 1971 with a bachelor of arts degree. She joined UNBeknownst podcast host Katie Davey (BA’17) in 2023 (prior to her latest appointment) for a conversation about her extraordinary experiences and why she feels education for women is critical for global stability.
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Highlights from the episode
Katie: So you arrived in Afghanistan as the Special Representative and Head of the United Nations Assistance Mission in March 2020. So that was, of course, right at the beginning of COVID-19, and you were in that position through when the Taliban took over in August 2021. Did you ever imagine when you started the role that you would be there during such a tumultuous time?
Deborah: Well, I certainly knew that I was going to be there during the time that the Taliban would be taking a place – we didn't know exactly how dominant that place would be, but they would be taking a place in Afghan governance. Of course, in February of 2020, the agreement with the US had been signed between the Taliban and and the Americans, with both declaring a scheduling for withdrawal of foreign troops, but also initiating a peace negotiation process. And we knew that that would lead to the Taliban engaged in some form of governance. We had no idea at the time that it would be this dominant or that dramatic. So yes, I knew when I took the job that I was going to a challenging period in Afghan history. I don't think we ever expected it to be so extreme. But on the other hand, I knew I had to be there because I wanted, first of all, Canada to be well represented at this huge transition period. I wanted a woman at the head of the UN during this huge transition period. I had to be very clear on what the definition of success was, and so that was a big part of the thinking beforehand.
Katie: You mentioned that it was important both overall and important to you that a woman hold that role, and we know that one of the biggest and most disturbing issues in Afghanistan under the Taliban rule is the way that women and girls are treated. Are you able to share what it was like for you personally to watch this unfold?
Deborah: Well, you know, let me go back to 2013, when Canada first put me in Afghanistan, with a strong focus on diplomacy and working things through in terms of helping to build the state. To have sent a female ambassador in 2013 was very striking and Canada put me there for a particular purpose – to truly demonstrate that women could be playing these larger roles in society. This is something that I'm incredibly committed to and continue to be committed to.
Of course, you are no doubt aware of what happened in the 1990s when the Taliban took over and we saw women's position in society degraded to a degree that I don't think anyone had ever imagined could happen. And yet in the 1990's the world looked away and I continue to say, had that been a people of colour? Had that been a people of religious identity? Had that people been a people of a particular? Ethnicity? The world would have reacted much more strongly when half of the population was persecuted the way women were in the 1990’s.
So during that period from 2013 to 2016, I got to see huge progress made, partly because I was a female ambassador and so many of the women's groups naturally gravitated toward me. In fact, they used to say to me that they looked at me as one of their sisters. I knew the importance of having a woman at the senior table in those positions. And partly because we did have a female ambassador on the ground at the time, the preparations for the 2014 elections, which was the first democratic transfer of government for Afghanistan, saw a turn out of some 42% females. And that was because of the Canadian thrust to get women voters out.
So now move forward then to when the UN called me. I knew that they as well wanted to ensure that they had a female leader and they have since, by the way, replaced me with another female leader. Fabulous, fabulous choice from the region. So what was it like to see the changes in my first year there: we thought we were going to be able to protect many of the positive steps that had been taken for women. We had women at the negotiating table with the Taliban.
I participated in those negotiations as well and met with the Taliban political commission in Doha many times and in the early stages of the Taliban de facto regime – from August/September of 2021 into March of 2022. We actually had a relationship with the Taliban leadership at the time where we felt that the rights of women weren't....that they weren't going to be as robust as what we had seen, but they were going to be protected. That girls were going to be getting back into school. High schools, universities and so forth.
That all began to change in March of 2022, and it was incredibly discouraging. It was very upsetting for me as a female leader. This was an entity that wasn't recognized as an official government, but we nonetheless, of course, as the UN, had to work with them but as we did so, tried to put in place humanitarian efforts, improvements to the economy and so forth. We were doing it as we were seeing women's rights being rolled back, and it was painful.
It was incredibly painful and frankly, I would have loved to have stayed. I left in June of 2022, largely because of family reasons. I continue to be very active. I was just off the phone a few minutes ago talking to people there. I will continue to support Afghan women. I think we can expect, though, that the very rigid policies of the Taliban de facto authority that are impacting women's role in Afghan society are going to continue, sadly, for several more years.
This situation for women within Afghanistan is going to continue to be very challenging for several more years to come. And yes, I'm heartbroken and a little bit mind broken about it, but I think we don't give up. I think this is also a transitory period and I think we have to continue to work with the Taliban. Talk to the Taliban and continue to support Afghan women in many ways, and I think there are many Canadians who are engaged in doing that and I'm going to continue to work with them to do that.
Katie: So what does channeling it constructively look like for Canadians? What role can Canadians play in not looking away?
Deborah: Well, I think we have to – in cases where we feel that there are Afghans who are in danger, particularly women in many cases, women who've been parliamentarians, women, judges, women lawyers, women politicians, women, teachers, professors, etcetera, where we think that their lives are in danger because of the role they played in Afghan society – we should be helping to get them out.
I think the Canadian government can continue to look at its refugee and immigration policies and maybe look at greater flexibility for Afghan women in particular. But for maybe a larger segment of Afghan society, my primary objective is to work to help Afghanistan be a home for Afghans and not be continuously focusing on getting Afghans out. Although I do think now that for some Afghans that is a priority and we should look at how we can help them secondly.
We really do need to be continuing to support the humanitarian effort and I'm really pleased that the government has continued to identify a good sum of money to go into the humanitarian effort. We have to look as well at our NGO's who are working there and support them, the Canadian NGO's. There's been some issues related to our terrorist legislation, and so we have to, I think, maybe look at some adjustments there.
We have to also be working directly with Afghan women entrepreneurs and Afghan women's groups to help financially support them. I'm right now working on a campaign to try to get some cosmetics that are developed and produced in Afghanistan by Afghan women and maybe look at getting them into a larger market. There's lots of opportunity to help Afghan craftspeople and get money directly to them.
So I think those things need to happen. I think we also need to be working with the regional countries. I think there's more that our government can be doing to work with the regional countries to develop, you know, partnerships with them in how they work with the Afghan business community.
All can be summed up by saying we need to stay connected to Afghanistan, we need to stay focused on it. We need to help Ukraine. We need to do many other things, but we can't let go of Afghanistan because as you and I have spoken before, Kate, there is a real, real concern I have that Afghanistan has this low bar that has recently been created for women could become normalized and could become something that the world becomes somehow accepting and familiar with, and I am very worried about that contagion. So not just for the Afghans but the world. We need to continue to stay connected to Afghanistan and find a way of working with the Taliban authorities. No matter how challenging that may feel.
Katie: So what's next for you? What are you thinking about now that you've had some space from that?
Deborah: Well, I will remain engaged in helping Afghanistan and helping Afghans, and I'm talking to lots of Canadians who are similarly engaged and we're looking at how we might work together in maybe a more structured way to both advocate to the Canadian government but also work with others around the world and work with Afghans themselves.
I also am very committed to working to support the Canada-Israel relationship. I was ambassador there for four fascinating years and I'm very concerned about the rise of anti-Semitism. I'm very worried about the rise of hate speech overall and this divisive leadership and the divisive discourse that's taken place – we see it in our neighbor to the South, but we see it in Europe, we see it all over the world and we are seeing it to some degree in Canada. I think as all Canadians, we need to work to be very aware of what's happening with this discourse and to find ways of opening up and engaging those people who are spewing what I consider to be, you know, very dangerous rhetoric.
So I do want to spend some time focusing on that for Canada. I'm very interested to see what's going to happen in the next Canadian election. And I hope our leaders will identify this as an important area that that they'll focus on. My concern about anti-Semitism and hate speech overall, including Islamophobia, really disturbs me. We've got a huge and growing and wonderful Muslim community in Canada and we need to make sure that this does not turn to sort of, you know, an ugly discourse. We really need to be supporting all Canadians and the great diversity of Canada. I have to tell you that as an ambassador, it was just such a joy to represent Canada because the world did look to us fondly for our social programs, for our universal medical system, universal education, and very much for our diversity and inclusivity. So you know, I just want to continue to work to protect all of those to whatever little degree I can.
Katie: This polarization, as you say, is becoming more and more of an issue everywhere and will likely unfortunately continue to grow as an issue. So I think that there will be lots of really valuable areas to engage and your voice will be really tremendous on that front. And to that point, so much is happening around the world, frankly, democracy feels messier than it than it had. Should we be concerned about that?
Deborah: I think we should. I think we should be worried, but I think we should be careful about our reactions. I think that we should not be too absolute and this is one of the things that worries me – that I find people have become a little too simplistic and a little too absolute in their reactions. I worry that Twitter and social media and foreign policy by Twitter and all of this silliness that seems to go on where people think that if they say something or state something somehow that solves the problem. People are speaking but not listening.
So I think we have to look at where democracy has worked and it has absolutely worked in in Europe and in North America and in other parts of the world. And it is still, I think, the best form of governance for any society. I think we have to keep a very special focus on human rights. That is absolutely critical, even as we find ourselves dealing with some very difficult governments...even tyrants. We have to stay engaged. We have to keep the conversations going with these people who might be trying to break down democracy. And I think we have to be a little bit smarter and thoughtful in how we respond.
I was having this conversation recently that you know, the last century was the century, perhaps of Europe and the West, and the next century is the century of Asia. What is it that we need to prepare for? What changes to the economy? To capitalism because it hasn't been a complete success story? It has in many ways been a success story, but we have seen in the last couple of decades many people left behind, which is of course giving way to much of the divisiveness and polarization we're seeing.
But we have to think through some of these forms of governance. Look at some of the countries that are struggling, their populations, their education level, their healthcare systems. It's very easy for us to prognosticate, but I think we have to bring, with our desire to protect democracy, also a clear-eyed view of those countries who are struggling to maintain their democracy and seeing it slipping away. What are their challenges that a democratic system is not meeting for them? And a lot of that, of course, is tied to the economy.
You know, my generation was the first generation of a widespread attendance of women at university. Prior to that, it had not happened. It was very sporadic, and very much connected to largely a very small group with money. It was the Canada Student Loan program that the government was able to put in that changed things. So you had both an economy that was strong enough that a government could do that and a government that was aware enough and conscious enough of its responsibility to all of its citizens to put in place that kind of program. If we had not had that strong economy and that loan program hadn't benn put in place, would we have had women empowered in the way we do now?
So all of these things are so connected. So yes, we should be protecting democracy, there's no question. Is it a threat? It absolutely is a threat, but I'm hoping it's a test and not a dead-end street. I'm hoping it's just transitory and we'll go through this catharsis. We'll make it through. We'll help other countries make it through. But we are also probably going to see other forms of governments emerging that will have their own definitions of success, and we're going to have to try to find a way of reconciling that as we go forward into this pretty challenging 21st century.
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